Worrying about writing

[frith_in_thorns]

I'm killing time before leaving to catch a train, so here is a bit of fic writing/posting angst I've been dwelling on for a while.

Ok, so, the thing that's making me go "I don't know the rules for this" right now is chapter-fic. Prior to Guardian I hadn't posted chapter fic for a looooong time. When I did, it was about on par with what everyone else in that fandom was doing -- chapters between 1-3k long, posted every couple of days.

(Edit: I forgot about the W359 fic a couple of years ago, that was ~3k chapters every two days.)

Except now it seems to be chapters 5-9k long, posted every week? And I've seen people say that posting every week is still not enough time to expect readers to keep up. Goblin Fruit I posted in 3-5k chapters every three days and I did have people tell me I was posting too fast for them. And, to be fair, I started falling behind with comment replies.

Frankly, I can't write 9k chapters. I sort of feel a chapter should be two or three scenes long at most, and my scenes tend to cap out at about 2k maximum. Do I write too concisely? Everyone's fics seem to be full of internal thoughts and musings and I... well, I don't do that either in real life or in writing. Do people really have thoughts they have time to think about in the middle of conversations? I can narrative narrative narrative in my head about stories I want to tell but the only time I get internal narrative is if I'm basically imagining I'm writing a DW post of getting my thoughts in order on a subject. I kind of feel I should be writing in a way to give characters space to think about how they're thinking but it doesn't come out naturally to me. I'm just action action talking action. Maybe some descriptions sprinkled in at the edges of paragraphs, and brief notes on the main emotion a character is feeling or speaking with. But that doesn't get you length. I'm a concise sort of person.

To be quite honest, I much prefer shorter chapters around 2-3k, and posting them quickly. It's how my fics split up best, since my scenes aren't terribly long. (I send scenes to my betas as soon as I've written them and I really like doing that!) But it seems like that's going hugely against the grain. And as you may have gathered, I spend a lot of time and energy worrying about going against unwritten rules.

Thoughts?

Comments

[xparrot]

I don't actually read that many WIPs... Not any particular reason; with Guardian I have a particular need for happy endings, but even works tagged for happy ending I usually tend to watch but wait until they're done.

That being said... When I do read them, I find I'm more likely to read shorter chapters...2-5K is the sweet spot for me, and what I tend to stick to myself when I post WIPs. A short chapter I can just check out when I have a moment, while a longer chapter I need more time for, so am more likely to just wait until I can read the whole thing anyway. I think most things I've actually read in-progress run toward shorter chapters.

Also, re: your writing itself...I really like and admire your, hmm, more economical style? Sometimes I get frustrated with my own writing and how it can get drawn out and bogged down. I admit that I enjoy it sometimes too, and for some of my stories I think it works, but others would probably be more effective if I could keep it more concise.

...the upshot being that everyone writes differently, and one of the joys of fanfic especially is that we don't have actual rules we have to follow to be published, and I for one really love your fic and am glad you do it your way and not like someone else!

[frith_in_thorns]

Thank you, that's very reassuring <3 I'm still a bit frustrated with myself that for Goblin Fruit I did actually make the chapters longer than I really wanted to, just because I felt I "should". I generally feel my writing works better in shorter chunks. I do often wish I could slow down a bit with a scene or some dialogue because sometimes I feel my pacing is too fast, but I haven't really worked out how to do that yet other than by throwing in something else to *happen*. I really enjoy how your writing can really inhabit a scene/character!

(I know we're not supposed to compare ourselves to other writers, but if anyone can tell me the secret of how to actually do that in practice I would write them fic forever!)

[xparrot]

I think it's impossible not to compare -- but comparing doesn't have to be a bad thing? You can compare going "this is better than that," but you can also compare "this does X this way, while that does it that way, but they're both successful storytelling, so how do they work?"

...Admittedly I often struggle with doing the latter while not doing the former, when dealing with my own writing. For some reason with other things not my own it's easy -- I can look at the works of two writers that I love, and see how they're different, and enjoy both of them for those different things that they offer, without having a preference between them. I can't pick favorites for most things I like!

So yeah, I always try to keep in mind that my own stuff can be like that for someone else; not the same, but not any lesser or less enjoyable for that...

[sheron]

You should write what you want to write, really. I know that sounds trite, but it's going to be your best work if you go for that.

I prefer my chapters to be 20k long. (I read the whole fic as an entire doc) Does that mean someone should cater to me? Nah.

As for internal dialogue, I think it really depends on the character. Some characters have more inner life than others. Like, say, I can imagine Shen Wei having internal dialogue between external dialogue because he's definitely a pensive, thoughtful kind of guy. I do write that way, and I do tend to think between dialogue myself depending on the situation and whether I'm just reacting to the other person or not.

So I think basically write what feels right?

[frith_in_thorns]

You should write what you want to write, really.

I know this is true but I am an anxious person very obsessed with The Rules XD

I do tend to think between dialogue myself depending on the situation and whether I'm just reacting to the other person or not.

That's really interesting to me! I guessed some people *must* do that otherwise it probably wouldn't get written about. When you do that, do you actually think things in words/phrases between saying things?

[sheron]

I always think in words/phrases in general, so it's not like I'm consciously switching to a different mode for this case. I'm just thinking, in between answering. Mostly it's like hearing a voiceover in your head a second faster than you actually say it? If I'm just reacting sometimes I lose track of my thoughts or they come really really fast so that the speed between when I am thinking and saying is negligible. But for more complicated responses I'm aware of it in almost like the way you can be aware of what you're about to type. (I actually type at the same speed as speaking, mostly so it feels similar).


I figured I might as well give you an example:

Person A: "Do you want to do X?"

Me: *thinking* Well that's not gonna happen.
Me: *deciding*polite-excuse-busy
Me: *saying* "I'm sorry I'm too busy."

[rheasilvia]

Some years back, I was about to post a very long story, so I did a survey! The result was that individual preferences vary widely, but for most readers, a posting rhythm of once a week with chapters around 5-10k long is best.

Some readers will wait until the entire story has been posted, or read in larger chunks. Some readers will not be able to keep up with this rhythm. But it's impossible to find a way of posting that is ideal for every reader, and this does seem to be the best compromise.

[ratcreature]

I'm not in Guardian fandom, but if I am following a chaptered fic that posts very fast, i.e. several times a week, and it has an expected limit on chapters, I may just wait for everything being posted rather than reading it as a WIP. That's regardless of chapter length. Whereas if the posting very slow, i.e. less than monthly, I'm more likely to drop reading it, though I usually keep the subscription to know if it ever finished, because I forget what happens between the chapters. For example I follow a Check Please WIP that posts very long "chapters" (basically novella length of 20k+) but there may elapse months between them, and the entire thing is too long to reread casually (250k+ words), so even though the story is very good, I haven't read the last two updates.

Personally I don't really have internal monologs or musings while I'm talking, unless the exchange is very inauthentic and there's something like a parallel track running that you can't say out loud because it would be rude or such, like you think someone is idiotic and wrong, but have to say something vaguely polite? But normally I'm not multitasking thoughts while speaking or listening. I sometimes try to plan or mentally rehearse difficult conversations in advance, but I think that's more of an anxiety thing?

As a reader, long bits of internal thoughts in the middle of a conversation sometimes make me loose track of what the non-POV character has said last when the actual response cones along after a bunch of thinking, so I find it jarring if it is more than a sentence or two of thoughts between spoken dialog bits.

[frith_in_thorns]

Personally I don't really have internal monologs or musings while I'm talking, unless the exchange is very inauthentic and there's something like a parallel track running that you can't say out loud because it would be rude or such, like you think someone is idiotic and wrong, but have to say something vaguely polite? But normally I'm not multitasking thoughts while speaking or listening.

Yeah, this is me -- I don't really multitask on thoughts at all? (Which is why I guess I find it SO hard to calm down once I'm frustrated/angry.) And even if I'm internally disagreeing or something, I'm not thinking about what I think instead, just feeling a "disagree" emotion, if that makes sense. I do re-run conversations in my head a lot after they're over, but not at all at the time.

[ratcreature]

Yeah, me neither. But then I can't multitask audio well in general. Even music in the background while I'm reading, writing or drawing is distracting. I can listen to podcasts while doing something manual like cleaning, but even that is iffy sometimes. And when I'm listening to things with words I mostly just listen. Which is why I currently use podcasts to fall asleep because my brain can't anxiously ruminate very easily if I'm listening to somebody else talking. I used to do id-fic fantasy musings to fall asleep, but that requires a certain discipline to not lapse into panicking about say the climate crisis instead of imagining Steve/Bucky scenarios or whatever.

[leesa_perrie]

Everybody writes differently and I've never felt your fics were too concise, so I don't think you should worry about internal dialogue that much. Just include it when it feels right.

As for length, I guess that varies widely. I prefer shorter chapters myself, but then again, I tend to read the fics once fully posted and not WIP (unless I know the author isn't likely to give up before finishing). But the few times I do read WIP, shorter works for me.

In books, I've also found myself grateful when an author writes chapters that are not really long. Not that it stops me reading a book, but those that write on the shorter chapter length make me happier than those that write the longer chapter length, from a purely reading pov (ie the act of reading, not what I'm reading). That's because I don't like stopping mid-chapter if I can avoid it. If there are long chapters, then lots of scene breaks help, but there's still a part of me that wants to finish the chapter... but sometimes I don't have the time to do so.

[marycrawford]

I'm so sorry that this is a source of stress for you! I have NO experience posting in chapters, but fwiw, I think you should do whatever feels right to you, there are no rules, even if other fans are doing different things. Like you said, some people write long, some short, and that is All Okay.

I mostly like to wait until a story is complete before reading, just so I know it DID get completed - but I make a few exceptions, for people like you and Naye who consistently write to completion (and write things I love!). So that's really the only important measure for me.

What I want to know if you ever feel like posting more meta is - do you plan things out beforehand? Do you lay out your plot in detail? I am in AWE at your productivity and also the amazing h/c plots you write, and frankly envious. :D

[clevermanka]

When I started Ghost Story, I stressed out about the same thing but decided to just ignore it (pretty standard MO for me) and sectioned the story out by the months of time passing in the fic since that's how my writing outline was organized. Magically, the months all turned out to be between 6k and 9k so that's how I'm posting them (weekly).

I don't expect people to keep up who can't--heck, I don't even expect people to read this one at all, due to the Major Archive Warnings. I figure those who are enjoying the story will enjoy it at their own pace. It's not like it's going anywhere. It'll be there when they have the time and inclination.

Hope you can find a way to be less of a brain burden for you.

[glymr]

*scratches head* I hope you will forgive me for saying this, but this seems like a silly thing to worry about. Fanfiction is for fun, there are no rules. Not even tags, not even warnings (which is why 'choose not to warn' exists). There Are. No. Rules.

Do it in a way that's fun and comfortable for you. I promise that it will work with someone's reading style. If people tell you they can't keep up, they can wait until it's done. There will always be someone who is happy to see a new chapter, who wants a shorter chapter they can consume before bed, or who likes less time between chapters so they don't forget what happened. There will also be people who wait until it's done, and people who like longer chapters more spaced out, because that's what works for them. You can't please everyone, and since you're not getting paid, the only person whose happiness and comfort really matters here is YOURS.

[sapphire2309]

As someone who breaks a lot of unwritten rules by simply existing in real life spaces with other people, do what's comfortable for You.

I don't really think people are hanging out in my small fandoms waiting for the 100-500 word fics about the women or background characters I wanna write about, but it makes me happy, so I do it. People are probably gonna be *squinty suspicious eyes* about the 10 word chapter I have planned for a 2.5k word fic that I've split into 10 chapters, but I'm doing it anyway.

I know this isn't easy advice to follow, I myself am currently avoiding ficcing because I'm all "boo hoo, I only got one comment on my latest ficlet thing", but like, I'll get over myself and get to it again soon enough? And I'll write my little ficlets again, and they'll make me happy, and one will get three comments out of nowhere, and I'll be happy again.

This is less advice for you and more a pep talk for me, but I'm going to click Post Comment anyway in the hopes that this is of some help to you.

[bonibaru]

I don't think the majority of people give it this much thought. I posted chapters of whatever length made sense for the story and posted at different times on different days of the week because I, a person who lives for engagement, wanted to have my fic in the fandom's feed at different times to get it in front of different eyes. If everyone is always posting chapters on a Friday at noon, for example, then I feel bad for the people who don't get to log in until 2 pm Tuesday and might never see things that have slipped down the page. That's the only logic I ever applied to timing of chapters. "How many eyes can I get" lol.

[naye]

Yeeeah, what everybody else has said? Post what you want! People do it differently! There's no rules. I did do a Twitter survey when I was getting close to starting posting Carte Blanche because I was curious, and because I am terrible at phrasing things the results are very "WHO KNOWS" but it seems most people prefer chapters to be 3-5k? There were people who preferred them to be 1-2k and those who wanted chapters over 10k so really - whatever you do, you'll hit someone's sweet spot! And you'll always have someone who feels it's too short/long/full of words/not enough words.

Do you, Frith! It is wonderful to read your fic and I love it. ♥

[rlyqueer]

There's always going to be a style of writing that speaks to someone.

Personally, I love the way you write because it's similar to how I operate as well! And I find too much exposition and internal dialogue distracting, and the way I tend to think about it is like... Does this internal dialogue matter? Is it informing me about the character and the story? If I took it away, how would the story be affected? I think ultimately, what I want to see is characters affecting other characters and their environment. I'm interested in characters being affected, but I want to see the impact of that through response. Which usually means action of some sort. At some point, internal dialogue ceases to actually...matter.

I'm a very "show, don't tell" sort of writer. I have to actively remind myself to sprinkle in some internal dialogue, because it can be enriching if used well! But I've never thought your writing was lacking in this area, and I actually appreciate how you craft scenes and pace things. I'm always very emotionally impacted by your works, so I don't think you need to add more internal dialogue to fill any gaps.

As for chapter length, I don't think there's any right answer or choice because it's so subjective. I can tell you that personally, I prefer weekly 2-4k chapters because they're bite-sized and I don't need to carve out a lot of time to read them and it's a low-energy commitment. Whereas 7k+ I start getting overwhelmed by length and put it off until I have the a) time and b) attention span. But that's me, and preferences vary, so if you do what feels natural for your own writing, you're going to speak to someone's preferences and the rest will read at whatever pace they want.

[sholio]

I know a bunch of people have said reassuring things already, so I'm probably repeating some of them, but I think it's EXCELLENT to have variety in any fandom - the desired state, even! - so everyone can find something that suits their tastes. Some people like a lot of introspection and some people like a sparse, fast style; some people like short reads and some people like long reads; and so the very BEST fandoms are the ones that have plenty of both. If you're writing something a little different from what other people are writing, that just means you're writing someone's favorite fic in the whole world, that they've been wanting for SO LONG and haven't been able to find.

[naye]

I love this comment and will apply it to all my own insecurities. ♥

[sholio]

I'm glad!! I hope it's helpful. ♥ I do try to think that way about my own fic, especially when I'm writing something especially far out of the fandom mainstream.

[sheron]

THIS.

[amara1783]

There are a lot of really excellent replies here. Everyone has different ways of doing things and preferences, there are no standardised rules on this nor are they needed imo, and I think you should do what works best for you and for this particular story. <3<3<3

[alessandriana]

There's no unwritten rules here. Do what works for you, because that's the way you'll produce your best writing. If you're forcing it to fit what you think it 'ought' to be it'll only make it more difficult.

Do people really have thoughts they have time to think about in the middle of conversations?

Yep. I have a constant internal narrative running in my head.

[antediluvian]

I definitely prefer shorter regular chapters. I'll still read longer chapters posted infrequently, but stuff that's around the 5k-9k mark starts to feel like work even if I'm really enjoying it.

[michelel72]

I wrote a long fic recently and broke it into post-a-day chapters, and for that, it felt like anything less than about 2k was too short, anything more than about 5k was too long. But that was a total guess, because over 5k is full-fic-length (or more than!) for a lot of writers.

Then again, I personally don't read WIPs (unless I'm certain the writer has the full thing worked out and is posting very frequently) because I easily lose track of plot and mood. Reading works better for me if I can get into and stay in a headspace, rather than jumping in and out. But other readers are different!

And all writers are different, which is a good thing, because all readers have differing tastes. There was a recent Guardian exchange in which I thought one of the stories might have been yours, but it just didn't read right for that at all, and I kept looking at various elements that should have appealed to me and completely didn't. I was confused, but I'm familiar with (and comfortable with) your style even when I can't necessarily describe it. You have a flow that makes sense to me.

I write a bunch of internal monologue and conversation-manipulation, depending on my characters, just because it feels right to me. I do "game" conversations to an extent, possibly because at some point I realized I was pretty thoughtless with people and have been working to be more thoughtful and empathetic. I don't think I personally go on quite the tangents my characters do, but I just figure it works as a writing convention -- for me. I don't expect it in everything I read!

[raven]

I am, as you know, a deeply intolerant human being and possibly not in the majority as opinions go, but I think you have complete creative and artistic freedom and cam, in these stories you write for free in your spare time, write whatever you want in whatever style you want to whatever length you want and everyone else should be grateful.